Archive for the ‘interviewing’ Category

Advantages of Alumni Networking in Your Job Search

Wednesday, March 28th, 2012 by Judi

Great post on a forgotten aspect of networking from my friend, Scott Sholtes, of  www.AlumniAgent.com

tnWith the current economic difficulties, many jobseekers have been looking for an edge in the job market. The average job posting on one of the large career sites receives between 400 and 600 resumes. How do you stand out in such a large crowd? While you may think it is impossible, the answer might just be that guy that sat next to you in Biology class back in your college days.

A highly undervalued tool in many jobseekers’ job search strategy is the power of networking. While many people think that they are using networking to the best of their abilities, many have not considered the power of alumni networking. Few connections are as strong as those one shares with their alma mater, so why not use those connections to land your next job?

Studies have shown that employees from the same alma mater often work well together. Employers are also more inclined to hire candidates from their alma mater because they know exactly what kind of educational background they are coming from.

Alumni networking can also help during the interview process. When an alumni employer interviews and alumni jobseeker, they already have something in common and it helps to relieve some of the tension.

Jobseekers can also use alumni networking in many other ways. They can join their local alumni association groups, and meet many new contacts there. These contacts will be connected in a variety of different businesses and industries, and some of them may even be able to recommend you for positions.

Statistically, 75% of jobs are never advertised and are filled through employee recommendations and referrals. Alumni networking can help you to become aware of many of the unadvertised positions and it may even land you your next job. There are also websites dedicated to helping alumni connect in the job market. AlumniAgent.com is a good example of one of these sites, and it is very effective at helping to give jobseekers an edge in the job market.

University alumni associations are also great resources. They have complete lists of alumni in your area, and they can help you to become aware of alumni events in your area. Some alumni associations have job boards where you can find jobs with employers from your alma mater.

Having a connection with a potential employer can create a distinct advantage, and could mean the difference between landing a great job and returning to your job search. Alumni networking is an extremely valuable tool, and can provide access to many jobs you would have never heard about. If you are looking for an edge in the job market, alumni networking could be just the thing to help you find your next career.

Scott Sholtes is a Social Media Specialist for AlumniAgent.com, a career based website. He has been a professional blogger for the past three years and has expert knowledge in the job search field.

Is a job ever worth handing over your social media log-in info?

Wednesday, March 21st, 2012 by Judi

Coercion“Oh brave new world! That has such people in’t!”  In context, this line by Miranda in Shakespeare’s The Tempest (Act V, scene 1), was ironic.  Huxley’s title Brave New World, also ironic.  Let’s visit another literary work:  A Handmaid’s Tale by Margaret Atwood.  A little less facetious and considerably closer to Orwell’s 1984.  

AP recentlyreported that Justin Basset was asked for his FaceBook log in info during an interview so that the company could examine his page because his profile was set to private.  Basset withdrew his application.  (Job seekers getting asked for Facebook passwords)

This egregious request – and expectation that it will be met – isn’t a stand-alone act.  It just happens to be blatant enough that there’s action moving against it.  But the principle is  condoned within the parameters of other invasive acts, some of which we willingly participate in.  So allow me to digress a bit and follow along outside of the job search world for a minute.

  • Want gas or electricity? A phone? Cable service?  Hand over your ss#. 
  • Get savings and gifts!  Just swipe this little tag you carry on your keychain…. (how many of those do you have?)
  • Prevent terrorism!   Millions support the Patriot Act, which allows the FBI to freely search emails,  phone records, and financial records without a court order. 
  • Been “frisked” or searched when you went through the metal detector prior to flying?
  • How much of the world knows who you are, what you’re doing, who and what you like and don’t like, where you live and went to school, when your birthday is…..because you’re all over social media?

This is not an exhaustive list by any means.

Hiring companies have always conducted references.  Government related entities have always done their checking a little more arduously, and in some cases, rightly so.  But then private companies started with the background checks and fingerprinting.  Then drug tests – even if you weren’t operating machinery.  In the last few years credit checks were added to the mix.

As a career coach, I teach job seekers how to  take back control of their career by not doing everything they’re told, showing them why they don’t have to follow rules such as submitting their resume online and teaching them more productive and effective ways.   I’ve long maintained the reason the companies take all the power is because job seekers give it to them.

But this Facebook thing is different.  There’s not a way around it.  You either give it up or go home.  Obviously not everyone is going to be able to go home, like Basset was.    So what do you do if that’s you?  You still go home.

Don’t be cowed into submission or rationalize it by telling yourself you’ve nothing to hide.  A company who will ask you to hand over that information has no respect for boundaries and that will show up elsewhere after they’ve employed you.  Signing yourself in so they can nose around isn’t any more acceptable. 

Acquiescing is the same as condoning.  Letting a company blur your boundaries is no different than being in a relationship where your partner has no respect for your boundaries.  They’re both invasive and abusive.

Nothing is black and white, especially to a private company who wants to rationalize their screening process for hiring, because unacceptable behavior is tough to define.  What is one company’s harmless behavior can be another company’s cause for dismissal.  It’s the principle we’re talking about here, and the principle is controlling others.  It’s coercion.

For the record, note the article says the Dept of Justice regards it as a federal crime to enter a social networking site in violation of the TOS (although they’re not prosecuting for it), and that both MD and IL have proposed legislation making this illegal.

Have enough respect for yourself to leave, just as Bassett did.  Because if too many people don’t, then bit by bit, it becomes acceptable, simply because there are too many complying.

Is it important to learn different interview styles? part 2

Thursday, March 15th, 2012 by Judi

imagesCAX56528In part 1 I shared why learning the different interviewing styles is a waste of time.  Better to make sure you’ve thoroughly done your interview preparation.   Recognizing a particular style won’t alter how you feel about the interaction between yourself and the interviewer.  In fact, because you’re focusing on the style, it may cause you to rationalize personality traits you should pay attention to.      

For instance, you run into an interviewer who uses a behavioral style and throws a little “stress technique” in there.  He wants to make you sweat. You feel as if you’re under a bright light – he’s grilling you, and you might as well have been fingerprinted. There’s no need to get all worked up (besides, he wants you to).  If that’s his interview style, what do you think it will be like reporting to him?

 The answer to that should calm you down. You won’t care what he thinks, because you probably won’t want to return. Good money? Eventually you’ll hate your boss, then you’ll hate your job, then your life will be hell, because the salary won’t be worth it.  Short drive? Eventually you’ll hate your boss, then you’ll hate your job then your life will be hell, because the drive will still be too long – you won’t want to go where you’re driving. Great advancement promised? After how long? How many people have quit because their boss was a jerk?

If you want to work for a control freak or someone who needs to appear tough and all-knowing, you’ve found the place. If he’s rapid firing questions at you, hoping to trip you up, let him feel important.  Finish the interview and cross the company off your list.

If your first interview is with human resources, sometimes they’re crisply detailed, lofty, and attempt to intimidate you.   Don’t let it throw you. If you know yourself, what you’re looking for, and have done your research on the company, you’re less likely to get flustered.

Others are adept at giving you enough rope to hang yourself, but don’t be lulled into a warm, cozy camaraderie. Watch their visual cues – which can be subtle. Follow your instinct, but follow their lead. They’re screeners, but in that sense, they’re also decision makers.

There are different interview styles, just as there are different types of people. The hiring authority’s interviewing style is usually reflective of his personality.  Stay aware of what’s happening at the moment, what you’re saying, what you’re learning, and how you’re feeling about what’s taking place.

The more you’ve done your homework in accordance with what I’ve suggested, the more relaxed you’ll feel.  The more relaxed you feel, the more confident and in control of your answers you’ll be, and the less likely you’ll be to get flustered by trying to conform to a specific style.

Put effort into making sure you know what your skills are, what gets you excited about going to work, and under what type of management style you flourish.  Know your accomplishments and how they relate to what the company is looking for. Be aware of what motivates you and what turns you off.  Spend time learning about the company with whom you’ll be interviewing instead of trying to prepare for an interview style you can’t possibly anticipate. 

Finding your perfect job is about you being real about who you are, not trying to respond in a favorable manner to some style in hopes that this will endear you to them and give you a better shot at the job.

Because when you’re real about who you are and know what you’re looking for, it doesn’t matter what style you encounter. You’ll be comfortable with any style you meet. And when they want you to come back for another interview, you can decide if you want to….or not.

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is it important to learn different interview styles? part 1

Wednesday, March 7th, 2012 by Judi

imagesCAX56528There are those who emphatically advise job seekers to study and learn the interview styles:  The Directive Interview, The Behavioral Interview, The Stress Interview, The Qualifying Interview, The This Interview, The That Interview.   Their articles outline different styles, list typical questions for each and tell you how to prepare for them, as well as suggesting appropriate answers.

 That’s all well and good, but there’s an obvious question that begs to be asked: how do you know which style you’ll encounter? When you phone to schedule the interview, do you ask, “Oh, by the way Mr. Interviewer, what interview style do you use? I’d like to study that one and ignore all the others.”?

Do you study all of the styles? Memorize every question that applies to each style and all the recommended answers to prepare for each one? And when the interview begins, you say to yourself, “Aha! It’s The Abstract Theoretical Look Sideways Style!” and then you know exactly what to say and do. 

Unless of course you missed a style or happen to confuse them, which throws you off and causes you to bomb the interview.

Worrying about interviewing styles is ridiculous. Not only is it too much information to memorize, but it’s also a waste of time. An interview is nerve-wracking as it is without worrying about which style you’re going to encounter.

The interview is about the company and how your presence will benefit them.  The preparation (with the exception of your company research) is about knowing who you are and what you’re looking for.  It’s not about the company or anticipating the hiring authority’s interviewing style.

Interview preparation is an absolute, non-negotiable, unequivocal must, but preparing by learning different styles is not. That’s why your interview preparation needs to be focused on learning about yourself, listing questions to ask, and forming your answers to fundamental interview questions.

You prepare by focusing on yourself because you are seeking your perfect job. You want to have the power to decide if you want to return for another interview instead of giving that power away. You want to be in control of your future.

An interview is a sales process. The product is, essentially, you. And you need to be real about who you are, and be prepared enough to interview well.  Do that properly and the style you encounter is irrelevant.

Interviewing is 85% prep and 15% common sense. Sometimes it does involve a bit of mirroring, but again, some of that is common sense.   Do it without losing your individuality. For instance, if the interviewer is chatty, longer answers are okay. If the interviewer is crisp and serious, keep your answers focused and on the topic.

For instance, one interviewer might leave you thinking “What’s up with this guy?” He seems rather at a loss as to what to ask you. His questions are open ended and don’t seem to have any firm direction or point. Just use common sense. You’ve done your interview prep work – jump in and sell yourself. That doesn’t mean talk non-stop, but you don’t have to sit there and be uncomfortably silent for long periods of time either.

Ease the awkwardness. Help him out. Lots of holes? Gracefully and professionally answer some of the questions you were prepared to answer, even though he hasn’t asked them. He may not know how to interview very well.

No one – except maybe a human resources person – should have a lot of experience interviewing. If they do – they either can’t keep a job….or they can’t keep employees, so he may be an incompetent interviewer, but that doesn’t necessarily mean he’ll be an incompetent boss.  On the other hand, other styles can be a definite warning sign.

Part 2 next week:  A few examples, as well as why styles are irrelevant and what’s much more important to prepare for.

free teleseminar tonight: how to avoid having your bad credit = a lost job offer!

Thursday, October 13th, 2011 by Judi

bad creditMore and more companies are requiring credit checks prior to extending an offer.  If you’re having trouble paying your bills and your credit is bad or going downhill, you need to attend this free teleseminar this evening (Thursday, Oct 12, 8 pm eastern)  and learn what you can do to take control of the problem.

You don’t think anything can be done?  Are you wondering what difference does it make because you can’t pay your bills anyway?    It’s not all about money.  Is less worry worth an hour of your time?  Then get on this teleseminar tonight and take control of your credit and your career!

Gerri Detweiler has been a credit expert for 20 years.  She’s an international speaker, has been interviewed over 3,000 times and has testified before Congress. 

Go here for more info on Gerri, the teleseminar, and to register for this free teleseminar.  Take action and improve what you can!    http://bit.ly/pPdpwr

will protection help?……….or not?

Monday, October 10th, 2011 by Judi

446604344_UnemployedNeedNotApplyIllegal_xlargeIt was about two years ago when I began learning from  emailers and clients and job seekers in general that unemployed job seekers were being discriminated against.  It’s great to see an issue getting national exposure that we in the career niche have known about for awhile.

Obama’s proposed bill prevents companies with 15 people or more from not hiring someone who is unemployed.  Cheers, right?  Advocates of job seekers have applauded the proposed measure.  But others say it fosters discrimination in favor of the unemployed and may well result in unnecessary litigation. 

According to Wikipedia:  “Unemployment (or joblessness), as defined by the International Labour Organization, ocurrs when people are without jobs and they have actively looked for work within the past four weeks.”  Not hiring the unemployed goes back further than you might expect.

Wikipedia also says that in the 1576 Act each town was required to provide work for the unemployed. The Elizabethan Poor Law of 1601, one of the world’s first government-sponsored welfare programs, made a clear distinction between those who were unable to work and those able-bodied people who refused employment.

I googled various phrases to see what’s happened in the past, but didn’t find much.  In 2006, Gary Aguirre was hired by the SEC, but sued them for not hiring him when he earlier applied for the job.  In 2010, a job applicant asked on a Colorado website if he could sue a company for not hiring him when they required a degree, hired someone who didn’t have one, and he didn’t have one either.  In 2004 a male wanted to sue Hooters for not hiring him as a waiter.

In a 2007 blogpost, one executive advises HR people on how to “delicately” handle the subject of why someone wasn’t hired by issuing any number of vague phrases – none of which are new to so many of todays job seekers.   I can’t count the number of times job seekers have asked me what to do when they have the qualifications, are ignored, and see the job ad remain or even be reposted on a job board.

Personally, I can argue both sides of this.  In deference to the job seekers, I’ve written several articles about the stupidity of companies not hiring the unemployed (here’s the most recent: 
http://findtheperfectjob.com/archives/264.html   In deference to employers, I know from having been a recruiter and now from working with my clients there are an awful lot of job seekers who think they are qualified….and aren’t. 

Companies who don’t hire the unemployed are discounting a valuable resource.  After all, it’s not as if it’s a candidates’ market and thus those who are unemployed are, generally, not the cream of the crop.  These days, there are a lot of very good people who were  let go individually or as a group for reasons having nothing to do with their performance. 

On the flip side, there are going to be job seekers who have a history of not accepting responsibility for their actions and aren’t going to change that if this law goes into effect.  In a world where people sue for spilling hot coffee on their lap, for getting cancer from cigarettes and equally absurd reasons that spend taxpayer dollars and tie up the courts, this attempt at fairness will most definitely have its boundaries tested.

It may well be that a few cases have to be litigated in order to set some sort of a precedent, with or without EEOC guidelines.  This issue isn’t really anything new – it just has a different shape to it. So, whether it’s enacted or not is a moot point, really.  Only in an ideal world will companies consider candidates based solely on their capabilities and credentials, and will job seekers take responsiblity for their decisions and actions and not look for the easy way out.

I’m just wondering………so you sue a company for not being hired and then…..you get lots of money for not being hired which underlines your lack of interest in conducting  a  productive job search in the first place (and shows what type of person you really are) or you get to work there after all.  You lose either way , no?  

Or you can look at it this way – if they don’t want to hire you because you’re unemployed, it’s not likely to be a place you want to work anyway.  Then you’re at a meet up group and run into the hiring manager who put you in the “no” stack because you were unemployed, you can quietly hope he’s learned something from his earlier decision.

courtesy isn’t optional

Monday, August 1st, 2011 by Judi

bill of rightsOld enough to remember Laugh-In?  “We don’t have to; we’re the phone company.”  Lily Tomlin’s line that reminds you of the pleasures of doing business with a monopoly.  This hasn’t changed much (I have a land line for telesminars) but other things have.  A lot.

I read somewhere today that thank you notes for gifts are old-fashioned and texting or simply saying, “thank you” is sufficient.  I don’t agree.  I may be old enough to remember Laugh In but good manners never go out of style. 

Especially when it comes to the job search.

Before I lambast the companies, a word to the job seekers.  See above paragraph about thank you notes.  They aren’t optional after an interview.  Unless of course you don’t want the job.

Companies – when did arrogance come into the picture?  Back in the days of typewriters companies actually typed responses to job seekers.  There was a lot more effort involved in those.  The 60s, 70s, 80s and on have been good years for job seekers and the companies were the underdog.  Maybe that’s why they did it then and not now. 

(Job seekers – see earlier paragraph on thank you notes)

But even though it’s an employers market, technology facilitates responses and the sheer volume of received resumes is no excuse for not responding, forcing people to figure it out or  putting some inane statement to the effect of “If you don’t hear from us you weren’t chosen” in the ad.

I’ve long said “small things telling” meaning not only do actions speak louder than words, but seemingly inconsequential things are often indicators of bigger positions.  A company that doesn’t bother to let candidates know the status of things is likely to be inconsiderate in larger matters as well.  Like you as an employee perhaps. 

One of the people in my network tweeted a link to an excellent article about the need for a candidate bill of rights.  If you’re a candidate, read it becuase you’ll appreciate the validation.  If you’re a company, read it because you should be mindful of this.  http://fb.me/UrRLSAiq

choose how you view it – part 1

Friday, June 3rd, 2011 by Judi

(I’ve been so tied up with developing courses and the launch that I completely forgot I even had a blog.  I’ll be posting a few times/week now. Promise!  )

tall_businessman_lifting_short_businessman_bld066154During the 22 years I was a recruiter, the thoughtlessness  of execs at various companies would often leave me shaking my head in wonder.  Thank goodness for those companies, however, because they were the first places from which I’d source candidates.  I usually knew more about what was wrong with the company than the ones running the company because I heard the stories from people who had worked there and left.

Companies are run by people and people have baggage.  Control freaks; egomaniacs; insecure bosses; those who skirt the edge of integrity (or are over the edge), are overly competitive, arrogant….you get the idea.

You – as an employee, a peer, or a job seeker – may have to deal with these people, but you get to choose how extensive the contact is and especially how you want to view it relative to the circumstances. 

These days, the pervavise attitude is you can’t afford to be picky about what job you go after or what job you accept.  Those of you who follow me or have been my clients know that I completely disagree with that, why, and what the more effective attitude and action is to take.  But that’s not the topic today.

The topic is don’t ever be so desperate you miss the chance to be grateful. 

Two stories – the first one from on of my followers who is going to be in my Perfect Job University class beginning Tuesday, June 7.  He’d indicated interest in it but hadn’t originally confirmed because a company with which he’d interviewed  a few months back had called him up.  He’d been runner up and so conjecture was that the guy they’d hired hadn’t worked out.  Now they wanted to replace him with the back up.

Since he’d interviewed with all the big guys not too long ago, it appeared from recent events  that  the imminently scheduled meeting was merely to make him an offer, set a start date, slap him on the back, hand shakes all around and celebrate the done deal. 

So I was surprised to see his payment for the class come through a few days later and phoned him up.  Turns out they’d decided to hold off before going forward.  Hold off by a whole quarter.  This info was communicated to him without much explanation or apology or consideration.  Sequence of events – start to finish - was about 10 days.

Sure, something may have come up suddenly that changed the viability of their plans, but the way he shared how it was communicated left me a bit taken aback.  There’s also the possibility that calling him was somewhat of a knee-jerk reaction and they didn’t think things through well to begin with.    Understandably – or maybe not, since I haven’t shared everything – he was rather incensed.  He’s been unemployed for a while and here was a paycheck so close he could practically schedule a vacation on it.

In any case, without going into the sordid details, it was unimpressive behavior on the part of the company.  “Be grateful you found out what they can be like now,” I said.  “There’s a company out there that’s has more respect for people and is just waiting for you to show up!  So toss that out the window and let’s move forward.”

In my book Demystifying Headhunters I have a fairly extensive section on how important it is for you to think things through when you’re in a situation where your lack of consideration can compromise the company.  In this case, it so happened that my guy didn’t have another offer, but what if he had?  And what if he’d called the other company, turned them down, and they’d hired their second choice, only to have my guy find out a few days later that this thing wasn’t going to go through after all?    

The second story, and the rest of the post, early next week.

fix this interview? what for?

Tuesday, December 14th, 2010 by Judi

imagesCA1QLI3AThe biggest beef I have with most of the advice out there is that I firmly believe you should not – get that? should NOT – try to get every job for which you interview. 

In the radio interview I did this morning with WSBA out of York, PA, in response to one of my answers, Gary Sutton said, “It sounds as if you’re teaching job seekers how to take control of their search.” 

 ”Precisely,” I said, and went on to elaborate a few points.

Why am I bringing this up?  I just read an article by a recruiter in MN which was  about a “jerky interviewer” as he called the person.  He provides direction as to how to bring a very bad interview with a very rude interviewer to a positive note.   ( http://bit.ly/hM76ny )

While I respect his point of view, I see no point to following his advice (In fairness to him, I disagree with a great deal of the job advice principles ”out there”)  The behavior of this interviewer is a HUGE red flag.  There’s no reason to waste your breath trying to bring it to a positive note because the whole thing is a moot point.  The behavior should never have happened in the first place.

Is this interviewer a petulant child that he can’t put aside whatever issue was going on with him and not subject Carol (the interviewee) to this kind of behavior?  I don’t care if he just got served with divorce papers or totalled his new Mercedes.  Act like an adult.

Is he such an arrogant, belittling bastard that  he needs to subject her to one of those awful stress interviews to see how well she handles it?   I niether advocate nor see the need for this type of interview.  They’re indicative of an ego problem.

There’s no excuse for his behavior.  If he permits himself to do that on an interview, just think of what it would be like to work for him.

Rather than trying to bring it round to a positive note, my advice is:  throw that one out the window.   This was a guy to whom she’d be reporting.  He’s done that once  – and in a situation that warrants his best behavior.  So why he acted like this is irrelevant.  It’s not how healthy, mature people act – not to that degree.

At the end the recruiter/author writes:

Carol may still be a strong potential candidate for the role… and then she can decide if it’s a position she would like to accept or not! Hopefully you don’t encounter “The Jerk”. However, if you do, be sure to address the problem and show that you can effectively move a conversation forward in a positive way.

Ridiculous.  I’d tell Carol to withdraw herself from consideration.  Granted, I don’t know the rest of the information, but there’s nothing I can think of – after 22 years of 3rd party recruiting and 3 years as a career coach – that would justify that behavior on the part of the person to whom she’d be reporting.

So yes – as I told Gary, the DJ on WSBA this morning, I do teach you how – and why –  to  take control of your career.  Small things are telling.  Don’t put up with that because it’s not going to get any better.  Let some other person land in that job and be miserable. 
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“cease and desist:” counter productive

Wednesday, November 10th, 2010 by Judi

thumbs downThe other day I was forwarded a press release put out by a reference checking firm.  The title was  ”Cease & Desist: Your Weapon Against Negative Job References.”  The subtitle was “Letters Can Put A Stop To Career-Damaging Feedback.” 

I think not.  More like “Letters can make a bad situation worse.”

Let’s first look at how references are done.  Formally, one HR person calls another HR person, checks dates of employment and eligibitlity for rehire.  For legal reasons, you can’t do much more than that.  So it’s not going to help much there.  Eligibility for rehire?  “No.” That’s about it.  Cease and Desist won’t change much there.

On the other hand, there’s a whole lot of informal reference checking that takes place and this is where the cease and desist is applicable and counter productive.    If you’re looking in the same industry or geographical area, there’s the possiblity that the company doing the reference knows the company where you worked.  It goes like this:

Hey Joe, this is Sam over at Magnificent Magic Marbles.  There’s a guy named William Williams applying here for a Director position.  Off the record, what’s the scoop on him?”

Sales and construction are two industries where more than previous employers, you’re looking at informal reference checks with clients and subcontractors.  It’s a network.  People know each other.  As a recruiter, I did it all the time, because I knew people who knew people.

What do you do instead?  A scarier but far more productive method is to heal it.  Remember this is a blog post, so it’s just an overview of what to do. 

I used to sometimes get great references on people who were fired.  But I knew how to do a reference.  Most people don’t.  I also know people, psychology, and am adept at balancing things like that out.  What I did with the reference and what I told the client depended on the bad part of the reference. That’s not human nature.  Human nature wants to avoid mistakes and is going to hear the bad, not the good.  And jettison any possibility for problems.

How do you heal it and effectively temper the problem?  You call the person up and you ask why they’re giving you a bad reference.  And then you work through it until you come to some understanding of what will be said in the future, and how you’ll both present that.

There are other ways to handle a bad reference, and in fact, handle references in general, but this post is specifically in reference to the “cease and desist.”

In any case, rather than go the combatative route, try a little relationship building.  Try more understanding and less assumption.  Move to the positive rather than accentuating – and exacerbating – the negative.  Your job search will be so much better for it, and so will you, especially since it took a lot of guts to make that phone call.
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